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luciandan 1 hours ago [-]
So basically wire this up to OpenRouter and you have your own LLM chat with your rules, storage, memory etc.
Pretty neat!
(Meanwhile Whatsapp's API-based bot is typically only free at very small volume or during specific free windows how are they so far behind?)
eamag 19 hours ago [-]
What are the quotas like execution time, storage etc?
xd1936 18 hours ago [-]
Thinking about using this to run my Plex server
ameliaquining 16 hours ago [-]
I suppose tunneling over Telegram isn't really more ridiculous than tunneling over DNS. Indeed, someone seems to have tried it: https://github.com/PiMaker/Teletun
dprkh 11 hours ago [-]
On Telegram, storage is unlimited™
domh 19 hours ago [-]
This is cool. I wish Signal had a bot API like telegram's.
AgharaShyam 18 hours ago [-]
I wish WhatsApp did... hopefully it goes the way of BBM and a more developer friendly platform becomes the norm among normies.
domh 17 hours ago [-]
WhatsApp does appear to have some "business" account/API type stuff which I assume is scriptable. But I don't believe it's got a free tier for personal use (although I haven't personally looked).
It is always preferable to use WhatsApp to contact a business than calling up.
ivanmontillam 15 hours ago [-]
Yes, but it's nowhere near the maturity of Telegram's Bot API.
And unlike Telegram, for a WhatsApp bot you need to apply with a bunch of paperwork. If you're an SMB, you got little chances of ever getting access. They'll tell you to go with their Technology Partners and make a chatbot with these other BigTech companies like Freshworks, etc.
pajamasam 17 hours ago [-]
Hmmm no, Meta is making money from businesses using their API.
geek_at 13 hours ago [-]
I use a signal api on a daily basis for all my agentic chatting and notifications about energy prices and server downtime notification.
Setup was quick enough but it needs a real phone number once during setup which is kind of a hassle. still better than using telegram which has no encryption for the bot backend so the devs can read everything you write
l11r 10 hours ago [-]
Your case is basically the first thing messenger developers try to cover with their Bot API. Of course it works great. I would be surprised if it is not.
No one talking about security, but I cannot argue that Telegram has by far the most powerful bot platform. People do with it great stuff.
I run my agent over Signal with this, the only difference with Telegram is you need to host this. Other than that, it's great.
19 hours ago [-]
timtody 17 hours ago [-]
Not having a bot API is one of the many things that makes Signal amazing
floppyd 16 hours ago [-]
Not having a bot API is what stops me from moving to Signal. I have 10-ish telegram bots running for myself, I just use telegram as UI for a script running on backend, and results are easily shareable with my other telegram contacts. I have no clue why not having this is amazing in any way.
ameliaquining 16 hours ago [-]
Why? Bots using the bot API can't send unsolicited messages to people. (Bots that control regular user accounts without using the API can of course do this, but Signal's not immune to that either.)
codedokode 16 hours ago [-]
Bots are separate accounts, marked as bots and cannot message anyone first.
justsomehnguy 12 hours ago [-]
Guess you never even read the docs, less use it.
qmmmur 16 hours ago [-]
Same. I used to use telegram for everything and then stopped after I realised it wasn’t really and to end encrypted. The bots were super useful. I used to have one I could ask different bus times for. Was so much better than the app the local bus company had made.
wolvoleo 6 hours ago [-]
For a lot of stuff it doesn't really matter whether it's E2EE though. I use it for bots that transfer information that isn't secret and for large public channels that everyone can join as they wish anyway.
For private chats I use WhatsApp yes. But telegram has its uses. Why does it matter that telegram can see your local bus times that are published online anyway?
stiltzkin 14 hours ago [-]
[dead]
imhoguy 18 hours ago [-]
Clever idea! Although after reading it briefly I see a need for secrets storage.
I've made one Telegram bot hosted on VPS with Docker and cloud LLM. It also interacts with a few other outside services and all credentials are injected via env vars now.
Should I push them as `.env` file for Telegram serverless?
ameliaquining 15 hours ago [-]
Pretty sure you can't do this, you'd need to instead move them into a lib/secrets.js file (which you'd then add to .gitignore).
It does seem kind of odd that they have so little support for developer amenities like secrets management, dependency management, cron tasks, TypeScript, etc, and didn't shape their API in a way that suggests that stuff's coming later. I don't think it'd be that hard to clone the parts of the Cloudflare Workers API that offer that stuff (workerd is even open source, and offers out of the box the V8-based tenant isolation that they need). Perhaps they don't want to support npm packages because this'd make people more likely to run into undocumented code-size limits?
raybb 19 hours ago [-]
Providing a SQLite db out of the box is a nice touch. I wonder if they're capping it's size in any way.
victorbjorklund 19 hours ago [-]
I don't see anything about pricing.
freeatnet 12 hours ago [-]
There isn't anything about pricing yet because it's in closed beta.
The lack of a clear business model does make me hesitate in building anything substantial on it.
Supposedly Telegram has been profitable since 2024 but there's crypto stuff mixed in there so it's hard to know how stable that is.
dakolli 14 hours ago [-]
The have a massive advertising business, and charge for premium accounts. Not sure what makes you doubt them when other platforms, like Signal, have zero business model and are just providing services "out of the goodness of their heart" (not suspicious at all).
simonw 13 hours ago [-]
I want to understand the business model behind this specific feature.
mfkp 11 hours ago [-]
Probably doesn't cost much at all to run some servers to spin up javascript functions, compared to their massive storage costs. It's at best a fraction of a percent of total costs.
Whether or not they (or discord for that matter) can sustain a profitable business in the long term is another question.
catapart 19 hours ago [-]
I'm also curious about this.
sam_lowry_ 18 hours ago [-]
free so far.
dist-epoch 18 hours ago [-]
sounds free to me
lukan 16 hours ago [-]
But will it stay free, once enough people invested in it?
Telegram engaged in a bit shady crypto stuff, and let scammer bots roam freely. Also there are perks, if someones troll/harass/spam and scam groups and enough people report them, they get temporary or permanently restricted - unless they pay money to Telegram. Then they are free to troll again.
bdcravens 18 hours ago [-]
With the popularity of Hermes, OpenClaw, etc, BotFather is quite a linchpin in the AI ecosystem.
AnonC 19 hours ago [-]
Emphasis mine:
> Each invocation runs in a lightweight V8 isolate, close to Telegram's own systems, so calls to the Bot API and your database are quick and reliable.
Telegram’s servers are distributed worldwide. I understand that the calls to the Bot API may be quick because the serverless code would be propagated to the edge, but how does it handle an SQLite DB? Is that also replicated to guarantee quick access from anywhere?
laosb 18 hours ago [-]
Telegram's servers are far from "distributed worldwide": In fact, it currently has only 5 logical "data center"s, and while DC3 is still on, clues [0] seem to suggest DC3 doesn't actually carry user data at all now, and both DC2 and 4 are in Amsterdam, so essentially they just need to serve 3 locations.
Also, Telegram's protocol design only allows for connecting to user's home DC for any write interactions (except media, which in most cases still is home DC, or a "media DC" alongside the home DC). Bots are based on the same DC of the user, so almost all meaningful interactions will happen only on one DC for any specific bot.
My first guess would be replicaton isn't that critical, because a user would mostly interact with an instance that's nearby, and this instance has their data. But the page mentions:
> Games and Tools — including leaderboards, quizzes and more.
A leaderboard that's globally consistent, huh, that's not trivial.
Maybe they just propagate the SQL commands to all their servers...
lukan 16 hours ago [-]
"My first guess would be replicaton isn't that critical, because a user would mostly interact with an instance that's nearby, and this instance has their data. But the page mentions"
Apparently not
"Each account is associated with a DC upon registration and does not change with the user’s phone number or geographic location. Users cannot freely choose a DC—if connected to the wrong DC, the server returns an error message, requiring the client to connect to the correct DC associated with the account."
I think there is no replication and each bot runs on a certain server.
weli 18 hours ago [-]
I guess the v8 isolate is heavily restricted and sandboxed and can't be used to access the local filesystem
codedokode 17 hours ago [-]
It looks like they are making their own cloud, with such a little team?
Also we should be using Matrix but it doesn't have half of the features (no channels, no mini apps etc).
Also I wonder whether compiling JS to native code is worth the hassle or not. In browser, it would slow down page load, but here you need to compile only on deploy.
ameliaquining 16 hours ago [-]
This is barely a cloud, since it only serves one particular purpose and everything runs in V8 isolates. Although they would need to ensure they're appropriately capping each tenant's compute and bandwidth; the article mostly doesn't get into that.
Fully AOT compilers for JavaScript are basically research projects rather than production-ready platforms, because the extensive dynamicity of JavaScript's semantics makes this a hard problem. (The most mature one I'm aware of is https://porffor.dev.) But even if that weren't the case, the thing Telegram is doing requires V8's low-overhead tenant isolation, so they're bound to V8's architectural choices. V8 does have APIs for code caching and startup snapshots; Telegram could be generating those at deploy time.
nunobrito 18 hours ago [-]
A few questions and if someone knows please help:
1) storage limits?
2) can access the internet? If so: bandwidth limits?
Thanks!
ameliaquining 16 hours ago [-]
The post doesn't say anything about runtime resource limits, which I agree is a strange omission given the architecture they've chosen. I suppose someone could try building a bot that uses more and more resources, and see when it stops working.
There's a section about making HTTP requests (https://core.telegram.org/bots/serverless#http), which mentions "two constraints: * Response content is textual (binary payloads aren't supported). * The total response is capped at 32 MB. That cap covers the whole response — streaming with res.body lets you process a large body incrementally, but it does not raise the limit." Unclear whether the 32 MB limit is per outgoing request, or shared among all outgoing requests made by a single handler invocation. Also unclear what other limits apply. Non-HTTP protocols presumably are not available.
codedokode 16 hours ago [-]
This means the code must pass the URL in cleartext so that Telegram can detect those who try to use bots for scraping and proxies.
ameliaquining 15 hours ago [-]
If you're talking about the lack of support for binary responses, I don't think this'd stop people from using Base64 to tunnel arbitrary payloads? Otherwise I'm not sure what the alternative would be to "passing the URL in cleartext" to an HTTP client.
codedokode 15 hours ago [-]
No I meant you must use an API that accepts URL and cannot create SSL sockets and hide communication from Telegram.
kreco 16 hours ago [-]
The title made me realized that there is less and less use of the "serverless".
Which was one of the most non-sensical word to say "You don't maintain the server".
honeycrispy 18 hours ago [-]
We're never getting away from Javascript, are we
17 hours ago [-]
leourbina 13 hours ago [-]
Just use Cloudflare Workers. Incredibly fast, super cheap and stable and very mature.
17 hours ago [-]
zb3 17 hours ago [-]
I thought this was about P2P messaging (without servers, hence server "less"), but no, obviously "serverless" on HN has to mean "run code on someone else's servers"..
ameliaquining 16 hours ago [-]
It's not the terminology I'd have picked if I'd been asked, but at this point it's clearly established and we might as well use it.
sidcool 16 hours ago [-]
I did not understand this. What does this do exactly?
ameliaquining 16 hours ago [-]
Lets you write a Telegram bot in JavaScript and have Telegram run the code for you on their own servers (with authentication and such handled automatically) instead of having to separately wrangle a cloud deployment.
freakynit 14 hours ago [-]
Dude.. how do I even enable that serverless toggle? It's not even there. I have updated my app just now.
"In @BotFather, open your bot → Serverless and turn it on" .... nop... that setting isn't even there.
solumunus 34 minutes ago [-]
It’s in closed beta according to another comment.
mschuster91 18 hours ago [-]
Good lord. This reeks of LLM... why should I use your product when you can't be bothered to have a human write it? Why should I trust it to work correctly or have been decently tested, neither of which is a given when having an AI vibe-code it?
And why is it one huge single page of word salad instead of self-contained units?
Anyway, good to see someone post a fully self contained example demonstrating core concepts. At least one thing done right.
adlpz 18 hours ago [-]
Sounds like it's free, so, why the hate? May as well have zero docs. I don't think they're trying to convince you of anything.
tkel 12 hours ago [-]
If they can't be bothered to write it , why should I be bothered to read it?
mschuster91 18 hours ago [-]
> Sounds like it's free, so, why the hate?
I see undisclosed usage of AI as a theft of my time.
adlpz 15 hours ago [-]
[dead]
15 hours ago [-]
nireko 13 hours ago [-]
when i can start?????
nireko 13 hours ago [-]
I hope to start using this telegram service after the football match.
stavros 19 hours ago [-]
This is off-topic, but I was kind of surprised to see this page written by Claude. I guess I shouldn't really be surprised, but I somehow didn't expect it.
jore 19 hours ago [-]
Out of curiosity - how did you figure this out? I cannot find any hints about that. Was it the language used?
zackkrida 19 hours ago [-]
language, structure. look how much negation there is. the construction "no A, no B, no, C" is used several times.
or another example, the following sentence:
"handlers/ is flat — no subdirectories"
who writes like this? you'd just write "handlers/ is a flat folder" or similar.
petercooper 19 hours ago [-]
"it doesn't silently go unnoticed", "would be silently inert", "instead of silently overwriting", "you can never silently overwrite"
The biggest tell for me is overuse of the term "silently". "quietly" is another one you often see from Claude in particular. Models love adverbs for whatever reason, whereas a human writer would use them in moderation for emphasis or prefer terms like "by accident".
ameliaquining 16 hours ago [-]
In my experience, "silently overwrite" appeared regularly in technical writing long before LLMs were a thing, because it's a useful concept to be able to point at. "Silently go unnoticed" is kind of redundant, though.
IanCal 18 hours ago [-]
Accidental things and silent things are very different. Accidental means you didn't mean to do it, silent means you don't know you've done it (or might not if you want to get picky, you could notice).
usui 19 hours ago [-]
I often see replies to AI-generated posts being pointed out here asking what makes it obvious. Is it that difficult to notice the indicators? Is it mostly undetected by English-as-a-second-language speakers, people inexperienced with generative AI, or is it something else?
vidarh 18 hours ago [-]
I rather think the surprise is a result of technical users wildly overestimating how obvious these markers are to people.
Have you ever “wired” anything to anything else when developing software? No, because software doesn’t involve wires, but LLMs are quite convinced that it does.
kmeaw 17 hours ago [-]
Sure, even @Autowired
fragmede 11 hours ago [-]
Depends on your background. If you're an EE dabbling in writing software, using the verb wire for connecting a couple of libraries together rather than "pipe" or "glue" seems entirely reasonable to me.
Possibly the excessive use of em dashes. Just a guess.
mohammedmsgm 19 hours ago [-]
This is so obvious
The most AI generated MD in existence. It's also th excessive use of bold, only AI can make bold hard to read.
fakeBeerDrinker 19 hours ago [-]
Reply to the parent, not me. I understand this.
stavros 18 hours ago [-]
I can't quite tell you, it wasn't something specific, Claude's writing is just a specific sort of punchy. The "directly on X - no Y, no Z, no A" and the "this is the part you no longer have to do" just smell a lot like Claude. Also "removes that layer entirely", "they map cleanly onto each other", it's all just Claude.
It's how you see a painting and you know it's by Picasso, let's say, or you read an author and you know it's Hemingway. Everyone has their own unique style, and so does Claude. It's just that Claude is the most prolific writer in human history now.
codedokode 16 hours ago [-]
Could it be because the author is not very confident in their English skills so they asked an LLM to translate text to a proper English?
stavros 15 hours ago [-]
It could be, it could also be that they wanted to produce it more cheaply, could be a few valid reasons. It just looks cheap to me, and I thought companies would want to show a better face.
Then again, like a sibling said, only LLMs will be reading this anyway.
codedokode 15 hours ago [-]
But to write the text, LLM needs some source, where does it come from? You need to write something anyway.
dist-epoch 18 hours ago [-]
I finds it surprising you find it surprising.
Is this the best use of a human, to write a long, detailed manual for a feature? Which most likely will be read by another LLM?
_superposition_ 16 hours ago [-]
Hit the nail on the head. I find it surprising people give a fuck any more. Who likes writing documentation? Us devs being horrible at and hating to write documentation was a standard trope before llms. They do a better job and dont complain.
BiteCode_dev 12 hours ago [-]
I always wondered how telegram could afford being free. A chat is expensive to run, a chat with gigantic media quotas even more, and they don't have ads.
There is no way their premium plan cover their cost, espacially with their extensive bot API that multiplies their traffic tenfold.
And now they add free hosting of bots on top?
How the hell are they doing that?
blackoil 5 hours ago [-]
> A chat is expensive to run
Is it? A mid-size server can support couple of million of users. Storage of large files may cost something but not the chat service is super simple and cheap to run.
pona-a 6 hours ago [-]
A sustainable patronage from the Russian intelligence community? /j
thisislife2 11 hours ago [-]
Apparently advertisement and premium membership.
mcraiha 19 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
dzonga 19 hours ago [-]
telegram is full of bots and spam.
before it was a better WhatsApp alternative. now either WhatsApp or Signal.
embedding-shape 18 hours ago [-]
> telegram is full of bots
It's been a core feature of Telegram since almost the beginning, and one of the main reasons I end up using Telegram, not sure why you'd think this is a drawback. The spam sucks though, not sure how they haven't got a handle on it yet.
vachina 18 hours ago [-]
If you don’t join spammy groups you won’t get spam
embedding-shape 18 hours ago [-]
Fair, I am a part of a bunch of groups I no longer care about that the spam might originate from. Thanks :)
kelvinjps10 19 hours ago [-]
those bots are different to these ones, for these you have to start the interaction. bots is the most useful feature of telegram
TacticalCoder 19 hours ago [-]
I use Telegram only for groups with people I know. I've got zero issues with boths.
Are you using public channels? (are those even a thing with Telegram?)
flexagoon 18 hours ago [-]
> are those even a thing with Telegram?
It is the thing with Telegram
sgt 19 hours ago [-]
They should start charging for it. Like not a lot, maybe just a coffee a month. That should keep the bots away.
Pretty neat!
(Meanwhile Whatsapp's API-based bot is typically only free at very small volume or during specific free windows how are they so far behind?)
It is always preferable to use WhatsApp to contact a business than calling up.
And unlike Telegram, for a WhatsApp bot you need to apply with a bunch of paperwork. If you're an SMB, you got little chances of ever getting access. They'll tell you to go with their Technology Partners and make a chatbot with these other BigTech companies like Freshworks, etc.
Setup was quick enough but it needs a real phone number once during setup which is kind of a hassle. still better than using telegram which has no encryption for the bot backend so the devs can read everything you write
No one talking about security, but I cannot argue that Telegram has by far the most powerful bot platform. People do with it great stuff.
I run my agent over Signal with this, the only difference with Telegram is you need to host this. Other than that, it's great.
For private chats I use WhatsApp yes. But telegram has its uses. Why does it matter that telegram can see your local bus times that are published online anyway?
I've made one Telegram bot hosted on VPS with Docker and cloud LLM. It also interacts with a few other outside services and all credentials are injected via env vars now.
Should I push them as `.env` file for Telegram serverless?
It does seem kind of odd that they have so little support for developer amenities like secrets management, dependency management, cron tasks, TypeScript, etc, and didn't shape their API in a way that suggests that stuff's coming later. I don't think it'd be that hard to clone the parts of the Cloudflare Workers API that offer that stuff (workerd is even open source, and offers out of the box the V8-based tenant isolation that they need). Perhaps they don't want to support npm packages because this'd make people more likely to run into undocumented code-size limits?
Source: https://t.me/devs/199669
Supposedly Telegram has been profitable since 2024 but there's crypto stuff mixed in there so it's hard to know how stable that is.
Whether or not they (or discord for that matter) can sustain a profitable business in the long term is another question.
Telegram engaged in a bit shady crypto stuff, and let scammer bots roam freely. Also there are perks, if someones troll/harass/spam and scam groups and enough people report them, they get temporary or permanently restricted - unless they pay money to Telegram. Then they are free to troll again.
> Each invocation runs in a lightweight V8 isolate, close to Telegram's own systems, so calls to the Bot API and your database are quick and reliable.
Telegram’s servers are distributed worldwide. I understand that the calls to the Bot API may be quick because the serverless code would be propagated to the edge, but how does it handle an SQLite DB? Is that also replicated to guarantee quick access from anywhere?
Also, Telegram's protocol design only allows for connecting to user's home DC for any write interactions (except media, which in most cases still is home DC, or a "media DC" alongside the home DC). Bots are based on the same DC of the user, so almost all meaningful interactions will happen only on one DC for any specific bot.
[0]: https://dev.moe/en/3025
> Games and Tools — including leaderboards, quizzes and more.
A leaderboard that's globally consistent, huh, that's not trivial.
Maybe they just propagate the SQL commands to all their servers...
Apparently not
"Each account is associated with a DC upon registration and does not change with the user’s phone number or geographic location. Users cannot freely choose a DC—if connected to the wrong DC, the server returns an error message, requiring the client to connect to the correct DC associated with the account."
according to this source: https://dev.moe/en/3025
Also on the frontpage now:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48920475
Also we should be using Matrix but it doesn't have half of the features (no channels, no mini apps etc).
Also I wonder whether compiling JS to native code is worth the hassle or not. In browser, it would slow down page load, but here you need to compile only on deploy.
Fully AOT compilers for JavaScript are basically research projects rather than production-ready platforms, because the extensive dynamicity of JavaScript's semantics makes this a hard problem. (The most mature one I'm aware of is https://porffor.dev.) But even if that weren't the case, the thing Telegram is doing requires V8's low-overhead tenant isolation, so they're bound to V8's architectural choices. V8 does have APIs for code caching and startup snapshots; Telegram could be generating those at deploy time.
1) storage limits? 2) can access the internet? If so: bandwidth limits?
Thanks!
There's a section about making HTTP requests (https://core.telegram.org/bots/serverless#http), which mentions "two constraints: * Response content is textual (binary payloads aren't supported). * The total response is capped at 32 MB. That cap covers the whole response — streaming with res.body lets you process a large body incrementally, but it does not raise the limit." Unclear whether the 32 MB limit is per outgoing request, or shared among all outgoing requests made by a single handler invocation. Also unclear what other limits apply. Non-HTTP protocols presumably are not available.
Which was one of the most non-sensical word to say "You don't maintain the server".
"In @BotFather, open your bot → Serverless and turn it on" .... nop... that setting isn't even there.
And why is it one huge single page of word salad instead of self-contained units?
Anyway, good to see someone post a fully self contained example demonstrating core concepts. At least one thing done right.
I see undisclosed usage of AI as a theft of my time.
or another example, the following sentence:
"handlers/ is flat — no subdirectories"
who writes like this? you'd just write "handlers/ is a flat folder" or similar.
The biggest tell for me is overuse of the term "silently". "quietly" is another one you often see from Claude in particular. Models love adverbs for whatever reason, whereas a human writer would use them in moderation for emphasis or prefer terms like "by accident".
The most AI generated MD in existence. It's also th excessive use of bold, only AI can make bold hard to read.
It's how you see a painting and you know it's by Picasso, let's say, or you read an author and you know it's Hemingway. Everyone has their own unique style, and so does Claude. It's just that Claude is the most prolific writer in human history now.
Then again, like a sibling said, only LLMs will be reading this anyway.
Is this the best use of a human, to write a long, detailed manual for a feature? Which most likely will be read by another LLM?
There is no way their premium plan cover their cost, espacially with their extensive bot API that multiplies their traffic tenfold.
And now they add free hosting of bots on top?
How the hell are they doing that?
Is it? A mid-size server can support couple of million of users. Storage of large files may cost something but not the chat service is super simple and cheap to run.
before it was a better WhatsApp alternative. now either WhatsApp or Signal.
It's been a core feature of Telegram since almost the beginning, and one of the main reasons I end up using Telegram, not sure why you'd think this is a drawback. The spam sucks though, not sure how they haven't got a handle on it yet.
Are you using public channels? (are those even a thing with Telegram?)
It is the thing with Telegram